Outdoor counseling legality

[fishinChristian]

jd39: Might be a good investment, and I'm pretty sure the red tape is less than in my profession. I'm also sure they'd like to tax/require permits for exactly what you're describing. Hope PETA doesn't read this...

[natetreat]

Do not judge what you do not know. Why do you think I would ask, if I'd already been doing this. I resent your implication, sir, though in the past I had thought better of you. Since you accuse in public, I respond therein. The times I took people were under the auspices of a large, bonded agency, prior to my private practice. As a county designated agency they were quite within their limits to take people on field trips, as reviewed by their large team of lawyers. While I can see your confusion, I also would recommend clarification. Go ahead, for I have never taken anyone fishing and been paid in any way for it. And, as stated before, I halved my fees, and now charge $60 per session, because people are having trouble paying the fees charged by others. If you look above, you'll see my decision. I have not and will not "guide," as previously stated.

Thanks to those who helped. Mike, feel free to edit.

As I said, if you were doing it as you stated, you weren't legal. You didn't specify whether you were doing it with your private practice, and it was unclear what you were "sticking to". I didn't mean to offend you. I hate government interference the same, if not more than you, and I also think that it's stupid for you to have to have a guide license to take people fishing. I have to jump through a crap ton of hoops to run my business, as I'm sure you do too, and we both come to resent it, but we do it anyway.

That being said, I think what you're proposing is a great idea! I think that it would be well worth it to get a guides license to run this kind of therapy. I know, as well as everyone on the board, how fishing is therapeutic and relaxing. I encourage you to go forward with the idea, don't let regulations get in your way. For your clients sake, you'd be doing a good thing.

I'm sorry if I came off rough, that's not what I meant to do. You hadn't mentioned the context of your previous outings, and that it wasn't part of what you're doing now. I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry that you took offense.

The important thing to understand from my perspective is that there are a lot of people that don't follow the rules. I have guides running trips on the Olympic National Park without a NP license, a license that I have to keep records, pay taxes and fees and jump through a ton of hoops to have. There are "guides" running discount trips without the license, insurance and paying taxes that I have to do. I'm just coming off tax time, which is a big reminder of why I hate government instrusion. But I do it, and a lot of guys don't, which really adds unfair competition to the industry. I can't compete with craigslist guides running 50 dollar drifts illegally because they are glib and know that they can get away with it. I've even seen some guides snagging fish, targeting out of season runs and all sorts of stuff. I'm in the process of trying to get a charter license so that I can offer saltwater bottom fish lessons, and it's a PIA too.

But yes, if I find guides breaking laws, and operating unethically, I'm going to turn them in. Just like I'm going to turn in the bucket biologists taking bass and planting them in our trophy trout lakes. I'm going to report snaggers and poachers. I'm not going to report you, because you're not breaking any laws, and all you needed to do was explain.

But like I said, don't let the license hold you back. Do it! I'll refer folks on that side to your practice, and I'm sure that you'd have a great market for that kind of service. Like I said before, I work with a therapist over here and he refers patients to me who could use a relaxing break. I think it's a great idea, and I say go for it!

[natetreat]

I take my buddies fishing all of the time. Every now and again they’ll insist on buying the gas for the boat or truck, or lunch, or bait, the ice, etc…..
Do I need a guide license to allow this? It’s a form of compensation in a way, calling myself a guide would be pretty fun! Hilariously inaccurate, especially for salmon/steelhead, but I’d have fun with it. Could I then write-off trips with real guides as a R&D business expense? Write-off my truck and boat, all the fishing gear I buy in a tax year…..I could be onto something here…….maybe I am a guide after all.
Obviously I’m being facetious, at least I’m trying to be, who knows the red tape could be that ridiculous apparently.

No, you don't need a guides license for that, obviously. But it's a good point, because at some point the law could be interpreted that way. There is a law governing every minute detail of our lives, and if they look hard enough, I'm sure all of us are in violation of some statute somewhere.

[fishinChristian]

Hmmm... I thought my earlier post went through, accepting the apology and thanking you for your clarification. At any rate, I apologize for the confusion. I am putting this on hold.

[MarkFromSea]

well that one went south......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAXh-qFmyg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[fishinChristian]

South is good this time of year.

Nice video!

[Mike Carey]

Keep trying WDWF for the definitive answer. If you need a guide license I'll eat humble pie.

Sorry Nate, I'm not convinced. So if you offer personal advice to your clients while fishing does that mean you are breaking the law because you don't have a counseling license?

So let's see, for this proposed counseling session, in addition to a guide license, and a food processing license, you better get an outfitter license since you're guiding them in the back country, and finally, if they are driving in your vehicle a taxi license.



I do agree, you would want to check your insurance coverage. I'd be way more worried about that than the other stuff.

[AJ's Dad]

well that one went south......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAXh-qFmyg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder how he got a boat that size into Bonnie Lake. I used to fish there and we carried a 14' row boat down and hand carried the outboard to launch in the creek.

[natetreat]

Keep trying WDWF for the definitive answer. If you need a guide license I'll eat humble pie.

Sorry Nate, I'm not convinced. So if you offer personal advice to your clients while fishing does that mean you are breaking the law because you don't have a counseling license?

This is an unreasonable assumption, but I get your point. Unfortunately, it does not apply, my client pay me for fishing, not counseling.

So let's see, for this proposed counseling session, in addition to a guide license, and a food processing license, you better get an outfitter license since you're guiding them in the back country, and finally, if they are driving in your vehicle a taxi license.

It depends. If you offer your services within the boundaries of a national forest, you may need a commercial use permit, each forest is different. If it is within a state park, or national park, there are certain requirements. The use of private property, like Weyerhauser land requires other permissions. If you are selling services and meet up in a specific town, you may or may not require a business license from within that town. These are the hurdles of running your own business, and why we hire consultants and money people to handle all of this stuff. I will say that many businesses don't do everything that they should, or get all the requirements that they should, but that doesn't mean they're doing it right.

I do agree, you would want to check your insurance coverage. I'd be way more worried about that than the other stuff.

I know it sounds dumb, but it's true. As long as you accept money to go fishing with gear capable of catching fish you are a fishing guide. If you're not taking money, than your business or malpractice insurance won't cover it, which is a big deal, considering all the dangers that fishing has and the potential for litigious situations. A personal umbrella coverage wouldn't cover it because it would be considered part of your business. Outdoor therapy would fall under the category of accepting money to provide fishing related services with gear capable of catching fish. A food fish and game fish license is cheap, running around 500 bucks for the both of them. The expensive part is all the other stuff that you have to manage.

According to WDFW

“guide” means a person who, for compensation, offers services to transport, or accompany people in their fishing activities, and instructs them by sharing fishing techniques, expertise and knowledge of the fish and waters being fished

I'm certain that the proposed service falls under this description.

An related example from another field: A plumber regularly installs water heaters. He holds a plumbing license, but also need to hook the heater to the electricity. Because he has to connect to the electrical system, he needs to hold both a plumbing certification AND an electricians card and do continuing education in both. A simple connection of positive and negative electric wires requires another fee to be paid. I know this because my father is a plumber I worked there while in school and he complains about it all the time.

I also am aware of a ton of plumbers who work "side work" under the table, don't pay taxes on that income, don't pay L&I and all the other stuff that's required, and they've been doing this for a long time without repercussion. There are a ton of guides that don't have licenses and still run discount trips. Government regulation in any industry can become ridiculous. But in this case, it makes a lot of sense. It is a way to hedge bets and mange risk. It's not the same as going fishing with friends and taking gas money. The reason that I got into guiding was because my family and friends wanted to pay me to teach them how to fish, and I looked into it and realized I needed a license and all this crap. So I started taking people that I don't know.

This situation is about taking friends fishing, it's taking paid clients. You would both be a counselor AND fishing guide, as defined by the law. I know, it may seem un
reasonable at first, but if you look at it logically, it makes a ton more sense compared to a lot of other government regulations.
They are VERY literal with their interpretation of the law over at WDFW, but do contact them with the question, I'd be interested to see what they say.

[Steelheadin360]

I have contacted and received an email from commercial sales at WDFW and the person there don't even know the answer. They will Get back to me either Monday or Tuesday.

[Mike Carey]

"WDWF, I'm a personal counselor and I plan to take my clients up to an Alpine Lake for a therapeutic counseling session. I will be charging my services as a counselor and billing their insurance for this reason. I'm going to have a packed lunch and suggest they bring a fishing rod to go fishing while we're up there. Do I need to have a fishing guide license?"

I'll bet you $10.

[natetreat]

Oh, and yes, if you provide food, you need a food license. This is one of the reasons why I don't provide lunches for my clients. The logic is, if you don't hold the qualifications to give food, you could get your clients sick. It's all regulations design under the idea of consumer protection.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here. He asked a hypothetical question about the law, and I gave my expert opinion.

[MarkFromSea]

well that one went south......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAXh-qFmyg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder how he got a boat that size into Bonnie Lake. I used to fish there and we carried a 14' row boat down and hand carried the outboard to launch in the creek.

IDK, the vid didn't show that.... Helluva good bite he had going on there that day. I liked that he showed a couple of dif techs to target crappie. I liked seeing that he picked up bass and perch as well.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/washington/774/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AJ's Dad]

well that one went south......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAXh-qFmyg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder how he got a boat that size into Bonnie Lake. I used to fish there and we carried a 14' row boat down and hand carried the outboard to launch in the creek.

IDK, the vid didn't show that.... Helluva good bite he had going on there that day. I liked that he showed a couple of dif techs to target crappie. I liked seeing that he picked up bass and perch as well.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/washington/774/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If a guy likes to catch crappies, that is certainly a good lake to do it in. You can literally catch them by the hundreds in there in the spring. It also used to have some fair sized bass as well. My guess is that I would have trouble launching my 20 foot skeeter in the creek. A few yeaars ago, I heard he the state was looking into purchasing some land and putting in a public launch somewhere. I never heard if that happened or not.

[fishinChristian]

Wow. 40 years since I fished it, but it looks like it hasn't changed. Pontoon time.

[fishinChristian]

Heh. I notice how quickly we can be distracted. It's like that T-shirt that says "They say I'm ADHD. They just don't understan... OHH! Look! A chicken!!"

[MarkFromSea]

Heh. I notice how quickly we can be distracted. It's like that T-shirt that says "They say I'm ADHD. They just don't understan... OHH! Look! A chicken!!"

That was the point or intent... squirrel!

[Steelheadin360]

Straight from WDFW Commercial Sales.

"Yes, a guide license would be required.

More information: http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial ... uides.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Application: http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial ... cation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paula Galivan
DFW Commercial License Sales
360-902-2464
paula.galivan@dfw.wa.gov"

[natetreat]

Straight from WDFW Commercial Sales.

"Yes, a guide license would be required.

More information: http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial ... uides.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Application: http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial ... cation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paula Galivan
DFW Commercial License Sales
360-902-2464
paula.galivan@dfw.wa.gov"

I thought so. You can keep your 10 dollars though mike

[fishinChristian]

You got 'em to respond?! Bless you, sir! A definitive answer was all I wanted, though the discussion and the video were a bonus!!