Reason for reopening

[primetime]

Reason for changes: Recent analyses of the ongoing steelhead fisheries in portions of the upper Columbia River has revealed sufficient natural origin steelhead impacts still remain under the NOAA issued ESA section 10 permit. Re-opening steelhead fisheries in the Columbia, Wenatchee and Icicle Rivers will help to reduce the proportion of hatchery fish on the spawning grounds and further reduce competition between natural origin and hatchery juvenile production. Opening these areas to steelhead angling also allows whitefish angling opportunity on the Wenatchee.

[primetime]

Reason for changes: Recent analyses of the ongoing steelhead fisheries in portions of the upper Columbia River has revealed sufficient natural origin steelhead impacts still remain under the NOAA issued ESA section 10 permit. Re-opening steelhead fisheries in the Columbia, Wenatchee and Icicle Rivers will help to reduce the proportion of hatchery fish on the spawning grounds and further reduce competition between natural origin and hatchery juvenile production. Opening these areas to steelhead angling also allows whitefish angling opportunity on the Wenatchee.

I have hard time believing hatchery fish are really a threat!

[sjrose24]

Steelhead are competitive with each other over spawning ground. By removing some of the hatchery fish it gives more room for the wilds to do their thing..

[primetime]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

[primetime]

Reason for changes: Recent analyses of the ongoing steelhead fisheries in portions of the upper Columbia River has revealed sufficient natural origin steelhead impacts still remain under the NOAA issued ESA section 10 permit. Re-opening steelhead fisheries in the Columbia, Wenatchee and Icicle Rivers will help to reduce the proportion of hatchery fish on the spawning grounds and further reduce competition between natural origin and hatchery juvenile production. Opening these areas to steelhead angling also allows whitefish angling opportunity on the Wenatchee.

I have hard time believing hatchery fish are really a threat!

You have never seen a kelt hatchery steelhead have you. Plenty of them spawn in the wild and I've even seen them on redds in the higher reaches of some streams.

Ya the wynoochee

[sjrose24]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

I guess that's true...I would guess most rivers with hatchery fish in them have some sort of interbreeding with wilds going on.. Removing some of the fin clipped should help speed up that process though..

[fear_no_fish]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

That is not what we want. This is why steelhead plants are being cut back on every river. A wild fish spawning with a hatchery brat on gravel doesn't make a true wild steelhead. The genes and instincts are lost in the process of hatching fish out of the wild. Hatchery fish should only be spawned in a hatchery or with your favorite egg cure PERIOD.

[primetime]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

That is not what we want. This is why steelhead plants are being cut back on every river. A wild fish spawning with a hatchery brat on gravel doesn't make a true wild steelhead. The genes and instincts are lost in the process of hatching fish out of the wild. Hatchery fish should only be spawned in a hatchery or with your favorite egg cure PERIOD.

I'm just not so convinced. I'm not sure the reason for a 100% gene. As they continue to spawn generations of steelhead become the "native" steel.

[Weekend-warrior17]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

That is not what we want. This is why steelhead plants are being cut back on every river. A wild fish spawning with a hatchery brat on gravel doesn't make a true wild steelhead. The genes and instincts are lost in the process of hatching fish out of the wild. Hatchery fish should only be spawned in a hatchery or with your favorite egg cure PERIOD.

I could say something but i wont. Y'all will just think I'm a dumb redneck.

[jd39]

Sadly I think the day will come when we'll just be happy to see any steelhead spawning in a lot of our systems. Hatchery vs wild will be a distant concern compared with the forces destroying both of their abilities to survive.

[jd39]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

That is not what we want. This is why steelhead plants are being cut back on every river. A wild fish spawning with a hatchery brat on gravel doesn't make a true wild steelhead. The genes and instincts are lost in the process of hatching fish out of the wild. Hatchery fish should only be spawned in a hatchery or with your favorite egg cure PERIOD.

I could say something but i wont. Y'all will just think I'm a dumb redneck.

Please say what you were thinking, now I'm curious!

[primetime]

Sadly I think the day will come when we'll just be happy to see any steelhead spawning in a lot of our systems. Hatchery vs wild will be a distant concern compared with the forces destroying both of their abilities to survive.

To me it's not a worry or disappointment. If the hatchery hit the gravel and spawn. Those future smolts become native steel and they keep adapting. I know people have strong feelings about this subject but this only makes sense to me!

[fear_no_fish]

Sadly I think the day will come when we'll just be happy to see any steelhead spawning in a lot of our systems. Hatchery vs wild will be a distant concern compared with the forces destroying both of their abilities to survive.

To me it's not a worry or disappointment. If the hatchery hit the gravel and spawn. Those future smolts become native steel and they keep adapting. I know people have strong feelings about this subject but this only makes sense to me!

They may be a "wild" fish at that point but it is not the same as two wild fish spawning. The hatchery fish pass on all the years of tank life and in turn "washes out" those wild genetics. Sure those "washed out" fish have some wild fish in them and might make it back to spawn. But then those weaker genetics get passed on again. All those years of hatchery spawned fish does not just disappear because they spawned with a wild fish. It would be cool if it worked that way but it doesn't.
If we are going to have hatchery steelhead spawning with the wild fish they should be one generation off brood stock fish. These brood stock hatchery fish are much much closer to a wild fish but still don't cut it next to a wild fish. NO fish with hatchery influence is as good as a truly wild fish and to wish they mix their genes is a mistake.

[natetreat]

Hatchery fish are domesticated, have poor survival in the wild and have much less success when reproducing in the wild. It's like throwing a domesticated cat into the jungle and hoping that it will compete with tigers. If they end up breeding with a tiger, they end up with little teeny runts that don't resemble tigers. The issue is a hot button topic now, with Oregon and BC switching to brood stock programs, the discontinuation of the Snider Creek program on the Sol Duc and our pitiful weak hatchery fish. If the hatchery fish breed with wild fish, and they have the same survival rate, it has the potential to negatively impact fish returns. That's why we have to kill them, to play it safe. There are studies about this -

http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/ ... generation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://caltrout.org/2012/01/study-repor ... -genetics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there are also studies that show hatchery fish aren't genetically dissimilar from native fish. They claim it's a nature/nurture issue, and that if we can change the hatchery environment to more closely resemble the river, our hatchery fish won't suck so much.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whatever the case may be, we should probably kill the hatchery fish just to be sure. That's why we put them in the river, for killing. This debate gets really vitriolic and nasty, and there is a lot of money on both sides. Federal regulations dictate that we minimize hatchery/native fish interaction, plus we get extra fishing time on these rivers, which is really nice for those on the east side because they don't have a lot of options.

[primetime]

Hmmm... I always like seeing the studies. It's theory that I can't stand. Overall, I'm for success of wild fish! If we can do that through hatchery fish great. If not then, well...

[Bodofish]

I might be opening a can of worms but I wouldn't mind seeing hatchery steelhead spawn. Eventually they become wild steelhead. Eventually their genes will strengthen

That is not what we want. This is why steelhead plants are being cut back on every river. A wild fish spawning with a hatchery brat on gravel doesn't make a true wild steelhead. The genes and instincts are lost in the process of hatching fish out of the wild. Hatchery fish should only be spawned in a hatchery or with your favorite egg cure PERIOD.

Ummmmmm, How to put this with out sounding insensitive. OK I see no way. For the last 50 years or so the hatchery Steelheads have been returning to their hatcheries and to the spawning grounds and spawning with the Nates. I guess what one could say is it's a little late to shut the gate, the cows already in the garden. Not only do the steel interbreed with the brats but they also breed with the resident bows. I guess what we got going on is a good old fashioned ménage à trois. Nature finds a way. As for loosing instinct, I don't think so, there have been quite a number of studies documenting the return of domestic animals to the wild, it only takes a generation and with interbreeding, less. One group heavily studied is a pack of domestic dogs gone wild in Detroit and of course we have the large number of pigs in every state that have gone wild. I see no reason to believe that fish would not follow the same path. And it's been happening for the 50 years or so. As far as policy goes, as usual the State has "hand picked" their consultants to give them the answers they're looking for. The State wants to get out of the hatchery business, it's no secret. So what do they do? Hire consultants to say the hatchery escapees are crowding out the nates. If this was so, one would think after 50 years the nates would have be wiped out. Steelhead plants are being cut back because the State wants to get out of the hatchery business. When they do the hatchery funding from your license fees goes right to the general fund where it can be controlled by congress. State wins, steelhead and fishermen lose.

[Brat Bonker]

Ya the wynoochee

No the skookumchuck is full of kelts, literally no native steelhead left in that river, all misclips and hatchery fish spawning below the hatchery

[RiverChromeGS]

Keeping it short and sweet... From what ive seen through studies and years of history in our rivers... Yes. Hatchery fish spawning in the river with Wild fish does occur.

However, the negative impacts are minumal compared to other concerns regarding wild fish survival. Yes hatchery fish are occasionally spawning with wilds. But most hatchery fish are entering the hatcheries, the number of them spawning in the wild cannot be that high. Take the skagit for example. 200 fish max return to the hatchery. At very most 40-50 stay in the river. 50 fish spawning in the wild? Mixing with 6000-8000 wild fish? Impacts are minumal on the genes. Even if a hatch spawns with a nate, still creating wild fish, maybe a bit weaker but its just adding more opportunity for returning fish.

Escapement of Wild fish in the skagit now is virtually the same as it was back in the day when Barnaby slough planted a million smolt. The only difference in wild returns were effected by netting due to the Boldt decision... Not hatchery fish...Compared to netting, habitat loss, puget sound and ocean survival for smolts and adults, the hatcheries spawning with wilds should not be the top concern.

Yes, kill hatchery fish, it certainly helps if we can keep em off the wild spawning grounds, but right now it should not be our top concern, and we certainly dont need to SUE washington state over hatchery fish and try to get all hatcheries discontinued...!!!!

[Bodofish]

Keeping it short and sweet... From what ive seen through studies and years of history in our rivers... Yes. Hatchery fish spawning in the river with Wild fish does occur.

However, the negative impacts are minumal compared to other concerns regarding wild fish survival. Yes hatchery fish are occasionally spawning with wilds. But most hatchery fish are entering the hatcheries, the number of them spawning in the wild cannot be that high. Take the skagit for example. 200 fish max return to the hatchery. At very most 40-50 stay in the river. 50 fish spawning in the wild? Mixing with 6000-8000 wild fish? Impacts are minumal on the genes. Even if a hatch spawns with a nate, still creating wild fish, maybe a bit weaker but its just adding more opportunity for returning fish.

Escapement of Wild fish in the skagit now is virtually the same as it was back in the day when Barnaby slough planted a million smolt. The only difference in wild returns were effected by netting due to the Boldt decision... Not hatchery fish...Compared to netting, habitat loss, puget sound and ocean survival for smolts and adults, the hatcheries spawning with wilds should not be the top concern.

Yes, kill hatchery fish, it certainly helps if we can keep em off the wild spawning grounds, but right now it should not be our top concern, and we certainly dont need to SUE washington state over hatchery fish and try to get all hatcheries discontinued...!!!!

Yep, yep, right on the money. As the evidence is pointing more to nurture vs nature these days. Steelhead spawning with Bows, Bows spawning with Brats and Brats spawning with Steel, I just can't see a problem with hatcheries. We've had them for a good 50 years and they certainly didn't cause the down fall of our native runs. I'm sure we would have seen evidence long before now, say maybe 30 to 40 years ago. I'm going to have to point the finger at nets, catching them and their food. Food is Herring, Anchovies, Smelt, Hake and the list goes on. The sharp decline in populations started when the sound was opened up to fishing for the fishes food in the late 70's. Couple that with pollution and habitat pressure and you have a recipe Steelhead and Salmon genocide. Hatcheries? I think not.

[jd39]

Keeping it short and sweet... From what ive seen through studies and years of history in our rivers... Yes. Hatchery fish spawning in the river with Wild fish does occur.

However, the negative impacts are minumal compared to other concerns regarding wild fish survival. Yes hatchery fish are occasionally spawning with wilds. But most hatchery fish are entering the hatcheries, the number of them spawning in the wild cannot be that high. Take the skagit for example. 200 fish max return to the hatchery. At very most 40-50 stay in the river. 50 fish spawning in the wild? Mixing with 6000-8000 wild fish? Impacts are minumal on the genes. Even if a hatch spawns with a nate, still creating wild fish, maybe a bit weaker but its just adding more opportunity for returning fish.

Escapement of Wild fish in the skagit now is virtually the same as it was back in the day when Barnaby slough planted a million smolt. The only difference in wild returns were effected by netting due to the Boldt decision... Not hatchery fish...Compared to netting, habitat loss, puget sound and ocean survival for smolts and adults, the hatcheries spawning with wilds should not be the top concern.

Yes, kill hatchery fish, it certainly helps if we can keep em off the wild spawning grounds, but right now it should not be our top concern, and we certainly dont need to SUE washington state over hatchery fish and try to get all hatcheries discontinued...!!!!

Yep, yep, right on the money. As the evidence is pointing more to nurture vs nature these days. Steelhead spawning with Bows, Bows spawning with Brats and Brats spawning with Steel, I just can't see a problem with hatcheries. We've had them for a good 50 years and they certainly didn't cause the down fall of our native runs. I'm sure we would have seen evidence long before now, say maybe 30 to 40 years ago. I'm going to have to point the finger at nets, catching them and their food. Food is Herring, Anchovies, Smelt, Hake and the list goes on. The sharp decline in populations started when the sound was opened up to fishing for the fishes food in the late 70's. Couple that with pollution and habitat pressure and you have a recipe Steelhead and Salmon genocide. Hatcheries? I think not.

+1 , I think you guys are on to something