Trout Unlimited?

[Marc Martyn]

Just checked the Buillitt foundation page and TU get's an annual $40,000 grant from trustees at the big "B"...
Actually, a good way to check the credentials of any "do gooder conservation" type of organization is to check to see if they get money from Bullitt. If they do, then you can pretty much assume that the "conservation" stuff is bogus. Just at nice sounding front to promote the agenda of Bullitt's trustees who are mostly leftist troglodytes and who spend a lot more time mourning the demise of their beloved Soviet Union than they do researching environmental issues.

Littleriver, listen up and listen well.

The above statement is an all out verbal attack on a group of individuals who live and work in the Pudget Sound area. The board of trustees for the Bullitt Foundation are involved in many civic and cultural programs and are dedicated to the preservation of our environment and support conservation issues. I read through the site and the backgrounds of the trustees. They are highly educated people who contribute greatly to the betterment of the Seattle region. Some of the creditials of the board are the following:

A Board member of the Pacific Science Center
A Yale graduate who worked at Microsoft and was the first designer of Excell.
A board member of Pike Place Market Foundation
An adjunct professor of engineering at Stanford University
A professor of Biology at the University of Washington with a PhD from Yale
A Past President of the University of Washington’s Henry Art Gallery board and past Chair of the Woodland Park Zoological Society’s Board of Directors
The Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at the University of Washington
The developer of Glenwood Springs Salmon Hatchery on Orcas Island, Washington, building a hatchery and freshwater rearing and release facilities for approximately 750,000 Chinook and Coho salmon per year from a spring-fed stream where no salmon had previously existed. The success of the project led to the formation of Long Live the Kings, a nonprofit organization working to restore wild salmon runs throughout the Pacific Northwest.

Some of these individuals may be members of this web site. In the least, members of this site may be friends or associates of them.

As a moderator of this site forum, which is dedicated to the enjoyment and preservation of our state waters, I object highly to these statements made towards these individuals and feel that they should not be tolerated.

In the future, any statements made by you or any other persons verbally attacking a person or persons will be immediately reviewed.

[bassackwards]

Well done Marc...I agree 100%



=d> =d> =d>

[lskiles]

Just checked the Buillitt foundation page and TU get's an annual $40,000 grant from trustees at the big "B"...
Actually, a good way to check the credentials of any "do gooder conservation" type of organization is to check to see if they get money from Bullitt. If they do, then you can pretty much assume that the "conservation" stuff is bogus. Just at nice sounding front to promote the agenda of Bullitt's trustees who are mostly leftist troglodytes and who spend a lot more time mourning the demise of their beloved Soviet Union than they do researching environmental issues.

Littleriver, listen up and listen well.

The above statement is an all out verbal attack on a group of individuals who live and work in the Pudget Sound area. The board of trustees for the Bullitt Foundation are involved in many civic and cultural programs and are dedicated to the preservation of our environment and support conservation issues. I read through the site and the backgrounds of the trustees. They are highly educated people who contribute greatly to the betterment of the Seattle region. Some of the creditials of the board are the following:

A Board member of the Pacific Science Center
A Yale graduate who worked at Microsoft and was the first designer of Excell.
A board member of Pike Place Market Foundation
An adjunct professor of engineering at Stanford University
A professor of Biology at the University of Washington with a PhD from Yale
A Past President of the University of Washington’s Henry Art Gallery board and past Chair of the Woodland Park Zoological Society’s Board of Directors
The Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at the University of Washington
The developer of Glenwood Springs Salmon Hatchery on Orcas Island, Washington, building a hatchery and freshwater rearing and release facilities for approximately 750,000 Chinook and Coho salmon per year from a spring-fed stream where no salmon had previously existed. The success of the project led to the formation of Long Live the Kings, a nonprofit organization working to restore wild salmon runs throughout the Pacific Northwest.

Some of these individuals may be members of this web site. In the least, members of this site may be friends or associates of them.

As a moderator of this site forum, which is dedicated to the enjoyment and preservation of our state waters, I object highly to these statements made towards these individuals and feel that they should not be tolerated.

In the future, any statements made by you or any other persons verbally attacking a person or persons will be immediately reviewed.

Well done littleriver...I agree 100%

The lefties do not like to be called lefties. They prefer "progressive."

I went through the Bullitt Foundation website and it looks very left of center to me, but when you call a spade a spade you get a reprimand.

I would not support any foundation/group that spends any time at all on their "carbon footprint." What a bunch of enviro-fascist bologna. When I was in school they said that we were headed for a new ICE AGE. What happened to that. Now we are having "global warming" scares. And worthless idiots like Al Gore win Nobel prizes for "documentaries" riddled with inacuracies and out and out lies.

[Drewp]

Well done littleriver...I agree 100%

The lefties do not like to be called lefties. They prefer "progressive."

I went through the Bullitt Foundation website and it looks very left of center to me, but when you call a spade a spade you get a reprimand.

I would not support any foundation/group that spends any time at all on their "carbon footprint." What a bunch of enviro-fascist bologna. When I was in school they said that we were headed for a new ICE AGE. What happened to that. Now we are having "global warming" scares. And worthless idiots like Al Gore win Nobel prizes for "documentaries" riddled with inacuracies and out and out lies.

Iskiles - regardless of what you want to believe about global warming or any other issue for that matter, when you say things like you don't want to believe something purely due to the fact that they are left of center makes you sound, well, ignorant. Don't be afraid to actually come up with your own opinions through your own research rather than regurgitate what all your rightwing brothers and sisters say to keep you happy and make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

God forbid someone worry about their carbon footprint - who would want that? In fact, I don't think the duwamish is polluted enough anyways. Lake Union is great for swimming I hear. I'd much rather worry about what makes me happy - afterall, "me first," has come to be the "right" American way, if you get what I'm saying.

[michaelunbewust]

everybody is entitled to thier own opinions. if anyone feels like they are being verbally attacked on a public forum, or anyone's friends, then stay off the public forums. littlerver is stating his own opinion, and, usually backs it up with documentation, but, its his opinion. i usually disagree with sam, but he makes some valid points, but mostly, says at the end that they are his own personal opinions. i personally must challenge anyone on here argeing about what foundations do or dont do, that has never gone out and worked on these projects, or at least reports that they do. you can have all the meberships you want, but, do you do like myself, get out in the field and make these projects happen?? there are a number of enviroment/fishery enhancement projects going currently, is anybody besides myself and m.martyn out in the field sweating and volunteeerng to improve our fishery's?? im currently going to become a member of Yellowbear's warmwater foundation, but not because of the membership, but, because of the opportunity to be involved in some field projects, that will help our fishing in this state. TU, DU, amongst others didnt work for me, i had to go out on my own and look for projects, thru the state, and the project going on at potholes, my membership didnt get me anywhere.

[lskiles]

Iskiles - regardless of what you want to believe about global warming or any other issue for that matter, when you say things like you don't want to believe something purely due to the fact that they are left of center makes you sound, well, ignorant. Don't be afraid to actually come up with your own opinions through your own research rather than regurgitate what all your rightwing brothers and sisters say to keep you happy and make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

God forbid someone worry about their carbon footprint - who would want that? In fact, I don't think the duwamish is polluted enough anyways. Lake Union is great for swimming I hear. I'd much rather worry about what makes me happy - afterall, "me first," has come to be the "right" American way, if you get what I'm saying.

Where in your imagination did I say I "don't want to believe something purely due to the fact that they are left of center?” I am concerned about real conservation, but global warming is junk-science. The majority of reputable researchers have found very normal global climate change. I think it is strange when people say that it must be caused by us, how egocentric is that! As if we humans are the most powerful force on earth. Thirty years ago they were all saying we were headed for a new ice age. Most of those same people said we would be taking our personal helicopters to work by now...hmm, where is my helicopter!

As far as pollution of water goes our water is a lot better than it was 40 or 50 years ago and I believe that is a good thing and we should continue to work for cleaner water and air.

There are more animals, both game and non-game in these United States today than their was in 1900. There are more trees in the United States now than in 1900. And you can thank the conservationist outdoorsmen for that not the environmentalists.

Insult me all you want...facts are facts.

Lewis

[A9]

In my mind I don't think littleriver crossed any line of going "too far." He gave his personal opinion about it, and was mentioned that he would be open to have a member from TU to set him straight.

I'm sorry that some of these people get on your nerves Marc, and while it may be frustrating, it's best to let the little things slide. Not every person is going to agree with everything you do or a cause you might support. I'd suggest that you just let it roll off you cause littleriver isn't "attacking" you personally and he's entitled to speak his opinions.. Opinions are unique to every person...

[Fish Antics]

Gee . . . I feel a little reluctant to enter the frey because my experience is not recent . .but I worked with a local fishing club called the Northwest Salmon and Steelhead club in Bellingham, which was supported by TU back in the 70's. TU freely contributed financial backing for a salmon/steelhead hatchery project we proposed, a facility that turned out some years to be the third highest chum producer in the state. The facility, in Bellingham, was originally created by the sportsmen and produced delayed release chinook (specifically for sportsmen) and coho, steelhead and chum. It was built by volunteers from the ground up. I know . . i did the preliminary planning on the project, met with city, completed the environmental impact statements and design paperwork, helped twist Georgia Pacific's arm for financial support (guilt money for dumping sulphite-waste liquors and mercury into the waterway) wrote grants and enlisted the help of a host of people to make it happen. It took a lot of help from a lot of people and agencies. It was designed as an educational facility that created a salmon run on Whatcom Creek where no salmon were naturally present due to the impassibility of the falls near the estuary. So, at the time, TU was less political and more supportive of fishery concerns and the recreational success of sport fishermen. I say this first hand but I can't speak to the present value of TU. I just think that while organizations like TU might be scored low we might also score ourselves based on how effective we are at becoming part of the solutions - like when Marc rolled up his sleeves and did some actual stream rehab - hard but important work. (It took a while to learn that channelizing streams, dragging timber through streams, building roads without adequate culvert passage was disasterous for creeks - except the ones where littleriver lives)

i have never met someone who didn't become an environmentalist when you take away their clean air and water, or pollute their children and loved ones.

By the way . . thanks for the smiles Marc.

[Marc Martyn]

I'd suggest that you just let it roll off you cause littleriver isn't "attacking" you personally and he's entitled to speak his opinions..

Sam- Please reread my last post very carefully.

[michaelunbewust]

hats off to your work micro. nothing better than being a part of the solution, instead of arguing about the problem. during the timeframe your speaking of my granddad Jack Unbewust was one of the administraters of TU, but, got out when it started getting political, and moved away from the statewide projects. he worked for the bureau of reclam. out o ephrata, and wasalways advocating enhancements to fisheries to support sport fisherman. his bosses didnt always agree, and they were also members of TU. just wasnt the same for them, as when it first got started. i can only speak for myself, bt, my time and money will be spent on work projects out in the field, and leave the memberships for when i retire. again, awesome work micro and marc m.!!

[Drewp]

Where in your imagination did I say I "don't want to believe something purely due to the fact that they are left of center?” I am concerned about real conservation, but global warming is junk-science. The majority of reputable researchers have found very normal global climate change. I think it is strange when people say that it must be caused by us, how egocentric is that! As if we humans are the most powerful force on earth. Thirty years ago they were all saying we were headed for a new ice age. Most of those same people said we would be taking our personal helicopters to work by now...hmm, where is my helicopter!

As far as pollution of water goes our water is a lot better than it was 40 or 50 years ago and I believe that is a good thing and we should continue to work for cleaner water and air.

There are more animals, both game and non-game in these United States today than their was in 1900. There are more trees in the United States now than in 1900. And you can thank the conservationist outdoorsmen for that not the environmentalists.

Insult me all you want...facts are facts.

Ok, in my "imagination," I could have sworn I read that you said you went through the Bullitt website and found they were very left of center, something about a spade being a spade, and that you would not support anyone who spends time on something silly, like a carbon footprint. Maybe I'm just imagining things, but it sounds like the left of center phrase and carbon footprint idea are causally related.

Who is this "majority of reputable researchers?" I'd really like to know. The majority of reputable researchers that I have read up on all seem to agree that humans are responsible for the warming trend that IS happening. CO2 levels are at a record high and climbing. It's a fact. Why care about what Al Gore has to say? Read what real scientists have to say - and I'd reccomend looking into what they are saying about the climate - not the weather. Those are two very different things.

I don't understand how this can still be considered "junk science." Would scientists really spend their entire careers studying junk? No. This is nothing new and has been being studied for decades now. It just makes me sick when I hear someone who is conservative say that they don't believe the liberals because they are facists, and it also makes me sick when liberals say that they don't believe the conservatives for the same reason. I'm sorry that the ice-age theory they taught you in school didn't work out - but if that's your logic for not believing all climate-related theories from here on out, then your logic is severely flawwed. 30 years go, the first warming study was being conducted by NOAA and NASA, and has only continued since then to gain the support of the scientific community. The Global Cooling theory that you are referring to from the 1970's never had any real scientific support, and was abandoned nearly as soon as started. The only reason it ever gained any real publicity was due to slight downward spike in tempatures that happend to occur right when the theory came out.

Forget about left, right, liberal and conservative. Don't write something off because it's coming from someone you dont' agree with, or because it's something you don't want to hear. I just heard on NPR today that Gee Dubya signed a bill requiring auto manufacturers to create cars with a standard MPG of 35 by 2024 (I think that's the year they said), and also to lower the standard wattage of the incandescent light bulb. He's your pal right? Why would he care about things like that if there wasn't something to this whole Global Warming Junk Science?

[Fish Antics]

What Marc presented was data to support his position. Opinions are healthy but misinformation is a diservice to us and our resources.

[littleriver]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Please review my statements Marc and please review them well.


I do not not make these so called "accusations" in a frivolous and/or careless manner.


A very good friend of mine debated the top trustee at Bullit some years back...... these guys are a joke.....







is all CRAP!!!!!!

it means NOTHING......

the only thing that means anything is the positions they take and the basis for those positions...


These people are not like us Marc. They are elite and arrogant snobs. If they could have their way "sport fishing" wouldn't even be legal.........



But if you want to be one of their monkeys then tell me what their positions are and defend them like a man..... don't give me a bunch of meaningless and irrelevant information about what "Board" or what "Foundations" they have been appointed to. That crap means "NOTHING". And please "REVIEW" the statement very carefully. REVIEW it and REVIEW it. Becausee that "CRAP" means "NOTHING"!!!!!!!!!!

If all you have to add to the discussion is this "Listen up and Listen up well crap" then i say you are a fraud..

You are a fraud and you are a coward....;......



if you can't offer any better arguments than what you've given so far then take your STUPID opinions and keep them to yourself..

[A9]

Some of these individuals may be members of this web site. In the least, members of this site may be friends or associates of them.

If they are then let them defend themselves...

[Marc Martyn]

[quote="littleriver"]
If all you have to add to the discussion is this "Listen up and Listen up well crap" then i say you are a fraud..
You are a fraud and you are a coward....]

Those are some pretty strong words my friend.

[Fish Antics]

I went to the TU internet site and poked around, like Marc did, to address the original question.

This was what I found on the TU internet site (URL) under "What does TU do?":

"TU focuses its trout and salmon conservation efforts on several fronts. From local on-the-ground habitat protection to lobbying at the highest levels of government, TU uses science as its key weapon in the fight to conserve, protect and restore North America's trout and salmon fisheries and their watersheds. These efforts generally target one or more of the so-called "Four Hs" of fisheries conservation - habitat, hydropower, harvest and hatcheries."

While an organization's policies and visions do not always measure up to what is stated, it is clearly a stated rational commitment on TU's part to use scientific protocols to understand and advocate for fish resources in the greatest areas of concern.

Uninformed people voiced their "opinion" when the Grand Coulee Dam was built, the largest concrete structure in the US. They said it was inconceivable that anything could ever be done to adversely affect the numbers of salmon in the Columbia River. A little science would have gone a long way back then.

[iPodrodder]

Keep it civil LR. This thread is going overboard.

Sam, great point.

[Mike Carey]

This topic has some good discussion but is getting rather over-heated. Let's try to be more civil please.

Moving to the Off Topic area.

[michaelunbewust]

HEY LITTLERIVER, I TOTALLY AGREED WITH YOUR SIDE, AND ALTHOUGH, I HAVE NEVER FISHED WITH M. MARTYN, AND, DISAGREED WITH HIM BERATING YOU OVER YOUR OPINION. I HAVE READ NUMEROUS THREADS FROM HIM, AND SEEMS HONEST AND CONCERNED, PLUS, HAD A LT OF GOOD INFO, NAME CALLING IS EASY BEHIND THE KEYBOARD, BUT, IT GETS THE FOCUS AWAY FROM THE THREAD. AGAIN, PEOPLE CAN ARGUE THE POINTS ALL THEY WANT ABOUT THE GOOD AND BAD OF JOINING 1 OF THESE ORGAIZATIONS, BUT, WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR OUR FISHERIES HERE IN WASHINGTON, IF YOU DONT BELONG TO AN ORGANIZATION. YOU CAN SPIT DOCUMENTATION AND RESEARCH ALL DAY LONG, BUT, BESIDES DONATIONS, OR A MEMBERSHIP, WHAT ARE YOU PERSONALLY DOING TO HELP OUR CAUSE, WHERE THE FOUNDATIONS OR ORGANIZATONS HAVE FAILED?? AND THAT WAS A GOOD POINT SAM. MY GRANDMOTHER PUT HER 2 CENTS IN ABOUT SOME OF THOSE FOUNDATION BOARD MEMBERS (WHO SHE KNEW A FEW OF THEM PERSONALLY), SHE CALLED THEM STUFFED SHIRTS, AND TO POLITICAL TO HELP SPORT FISHER'S. I KNOW SHE IS 86 YEARS YOUNG, BUT, STILL HAS AN OPINION.!ha!

[JimLyons]

I have never met a fish that was left or right wing. I believe that everyone on this site wants to be able to enjoy our resources and to have them here for our children and their children. I also hear that as a whole there is not much faith in the beuracrats who are running the world. We can only seek conservation and change from the trash we don't throw in the river, and respecting the opportinities we have to fish. I also can hear you all saying theat Jim Lyons can't spell worth beans. Please let's respect each other. I truly see validity in Iskiles frustration, and Marcs as well. I am going to think of a new less controversial topic lets see.. hmmm politics?,religion...relationships...fishing!! EUREKA let's be men and women sharing a common love and passion, hey wait a minute... we already are. I think life for me works better if I look for similarities instead of differences.