Feds preparing to shut down recreational fishing...

[flinginpooh]

If its just a ploy to make obama look like an ass then gr8. But as I said before legal or not I will continue to fish as I have since I can remember.

[MikeFishes]

One last comment and I'll shut up and let you guys discuss. o:)

The article I posted was just one in a series by Robert Montgomery. The one I'm posting below clearly demonstrates what I think we collectively believe we are. I feel I do fit in this category.

Here's the first part of the article (emphasis mine)...

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/fish ... id=4545896

I'm for a stronger Clean Water Act. I want to preserve old-growth forests. I think that it's a disgrace that our federal government hasn't acted more decisively to keep invasive species out of the Great Lakes. I believe that we need stiffer regulations to protect our streams from strip mining, our groundwater from herbicides, and our estuaries from the runoff pollution of urban sprawl and farm fields.

But, alas, I'm also an angler, and anglers aren't environmentalists. It's not that anglers don't want to protect the environment. They do. It's that they don't want to be called "environmentalists." They associate that term with agenda-driven campaigns for preservation policies that often are not backed by scientific evidence.

For anglers, "conservationist" is the term of choice. Conservationists believe in both protection and sustainable use of our lands, waters, and other natural resources. They follow an ethical code of behavior and embrace a stewardship philosophy in the tradition of Theodore Roosevelt.

So we have two factions, conservationists and environmentalists, sharing many of the same values, but more often viewing each other as enemies than allies.

Perhaps the most climactic moment of that divide now is occurring as environmentalists embrace a strategy to use Marine Protected Areas and other designations by governments at all levels to deny recreational anglers access to public waters. In doing so, they are shamefully insulting and dismissing a constituency that does more to protect those waters than any other.

Also, let it be known that the MediaMaters web site is also known by many as a leftist propaganda outlet (don't believe me, look at who they really are and who they target). Of course they are going to call concerns and what not "right wing". It polarizes the topic and gets people to make assumptions about issues they want to influence (after all, what else is media other than a way to influence?). I'd prefer you all not make assumptions and read, read, read. Discuss, discuss, discuss, and then draw your own conclusions.

[lonnie197272]

In case anyone is interested ESPN issued an apology for this article. I think that maybe somebody jumped the gun on what was said. Not that I wouldnt be up in arms about my fishing being taken away. But there is way to much to be lost Millions of dollars. Not going to happen.

[bionic_one]

Right-wing media eagerly spread absurd claim that Obama plans to "ban sport fishing"

http://mediamatters.org/research/201003100014

That site is left-wing propaganda.

Both sides are using attention grabbing headlines to polarize people. Do some research (not just ckim85, ALL of you) and you'll see that the big problem is environmental extremists pushing an agenda, that is being supported by the friendly ear of our president. Now that's not really out of the ordinary, it happens no matter who is in office. The concern is that radical measures are being taken WITHOUT due process, proper oversight, comprehensive evidence, and most importantly, input from the public (us fisherman)

I personally feel that not enough attention is being given to solving pollution, .... uh nevermind, I already posted earlier what the real problems were, and recreational fisherman are not the problem. There aren't very many rule breakers out there and taking hatchery fish is what most of us do so yeah...

[ckim85]

Right-wing media eagerly spread absurd claim that Obama plans to "ban sport fishing"

http://mediamatters.org/research/201003100014

That site is left-wing propaganda.

Both sides are using attention grabbing headlines to polarize people. Do some research (not just ckim85, ALL of you) and you'll see that the big problem is environmental extremists pushing an agenda, that is being supported by the friendly ear of our president. Now that's not really out of the ordinary, it happens no matter who is in office. The concern is that radical measures are being taken WITHOUT due process, proper oversight, comprehensive evidence, and most importantly, input from the public (us fisherman)

I personally feel that not enough attention is being given to solving pollution, .... uh nevermind, I already posted earlier what the real problems were, and recreational fisherman are not the problem. There aren't very many rule breakers out there and taking hatchery fish is what most of us do so yeah...

bionic one, that link is a left-wing site but it was linked from an official apology stated by ESPN for jumping the gun and writing up an article based on rumors that were spread via a right-wing blog. And I agree, both parties do the same, I just posted the link to clear up the rumors.

and one last note, i COMPLETELY disagree with your last statement there. Not sure if you were speaking tongue in cheek but there are a TON of rule breakers. If you haven't seen it, goto any river during some of the big runs and you'll find guys poaching and snagging and doing whatever they can do get their fish, hatchery or native. Spend a day out on Cedar river during the week that it opens and you'll walk away shaking your head at how many poachers you'll find.

I just don't think you can excuse recreational fishermen in general as a problem. It might not be the most detrimental factor, but it certainly is a huge impact. Like I stated before, I don't think blaming recreational fishermen is the solution, nor is it logical if anyone with half a brain takes the time to think about it, but I do agree that we as fisherman usually don't take on the responsibility to preserve our fishery, I'm certinaly guilty of this many times. Walk up and down the banks of any popular river and take the time to pick up garbage. We spent a couple hours on Skykomish near the cracker bar a few months ago and picked up 12 full large bags of garbage, most of which are wads adn wads of mono, empty worm plastic buckets, empty cigarette packs, beer cans, and just general garbage left behind by hundreds of anglers that visit the rivers. Again, I'm not jumping on the high horse because I am guilty of this and working on doing my part every time i'm on the river, but I don't think we can simply excuse recreational fishermen from the problems we have.

[bionic_one]

Haven't been to that river. On the Puyallup, I remember lots of people booing (or an equivelent of that) when a fish would come in foul hooked. "damnit it's foul hooked" and then they'd let it go. I did some pinks 'abused' (kicked back into the water for example) but Silvers and Kings were all handled with care, even if they were going to be kept.

On the Nisqually I also saw that foul hooked fish were released - and not really that many fish caught at all :-\

There were some tards keeping zombies on the Green, but again I didn't see people keep anything that wasn't legal.

Maybe that's just my luck - or theirs since I have a tendency to be confrontational [-x

That said, our conversation was about declining fish stocks, and I can honestly say I've never seen anyone keep a fish they weren't allowed to - which is what I meant by rule breakers. Perhaps I should have specified by saying poachers.

[ckim85]

Your experiences are very different from mine.

I can name almost every puget sound river and an experience I had with a poacher. Just to name a few just from this winter:

Sauk - guy running down bragging about his bucket of dead bull trout, fishing with treble hook with worms.

Skykomish - I watched a guy lift and boat a native steelhead into his boat. Before I saw him release the fish, he blasted his jet on and he took off. If he did "release" the fish, the fish is long dead by the time he released it.

Snoqualmie - Watched a guy keep a colored up winter run coho in January near Raging River mouth. (season closes in December)

MF Snoqualmie - Watched a guy sitting at the river bank with worms, with a bucket of dead fish.

Hoh - A guide recently was caught after being bribed by his client in keeping a 30lb native they had caught in upper Hoh where it is illegal to retain.

Cedar River is probably the worst of it all from everythign I've heard to seen. Cedar was closed to fishing for several years, in which the recovery of fish was very successful. Now? Population of fish are much thinner and quickly dieing once again.
Not to mention the midnight Sockeye fisherman on the Cedar we all read about this past year...

Overall, it's pretty rampant in my opinion. And understandably its hard to manage with all the budget cuts WDFW has been seeing.

[jbball50]

Yeah same with CKim85, I've seen people keep illegal fish or foul hooked fish plenty of times on different rivers. I remember talking to some guy on the Nisqually that said he was keeping foul hooked pinks from the Puyallup. He said he was going to go back down there because the Nisqually was "slow" that day. Guess he couldn't find a fish to snag. He also was talking about how he couldn't wait until steelhead fishing at the Lewis, said how he'd keep more than the limit there too. Just kind of shook my head at him and whatever. Used to see a looooot of snagging and keeping of fish on Chico Creek. Also people fishing inside the creek when you weren't supposed to back in the 90's when it was illegal to fish in the actual creek.

[ckim85]

Yeah same with CKim85, I've seen people keep illegal fish or foul hooked fish plenty of times on different rivers. I remember talking to some guy on the Nisqually that said he was keeping foul hooked pinks from the Puyallup. He said he was going to go back down there because the Nisqually was "slow" that day. Guess he couldn't find a fish to snag. He also was talking about how he couldn't wait until steelhead fishing at the Lewis, said how he'd keep more than the limit there too. Just kind of shook my head at him and whatever. Used to see a looooot of snagging and keeping of fish on Chico Creek. Also people fishing inside the creek when you weren't supposed to back in the 90's when it was illegal to fish in the actual creek.

The pink season probably brought out the worst of em. I remember I went down to the Puyallup one day with a couple friends...I was in disbelief at how people were fishing. Shoulder to shoulder...garbage everywhere...wads of mono hanging off every branch, people cussing and yelling, flossing, etc.

Also, it's often not the popular meat holes but rather some of the fisheries that don't have as many people. Skagit and Sauk during late season when you didn't find people fishing it, you can come across guys tucked in behind a bush plunking with sand shrimps and keeping fish. As a matter of fact, I bet if you really put in some time, you can find guys out on Skykomish right now.

A friend of mine told me a story recently about a guy who he called WDFW on because he was tucked away lower Snohomish, fishing...when asked, he said he was sturgeon fishing. Sturgeon fishign with steelhead gear...right...

On one hand, it is kind of sad that we've gotten to this point. When I was a kid growing up fishing in TX and OKlahoma, there weren't many rules like this. A body of water meant fishing. Often with bobber and worms or live bait, etc. It's what was fun growing up...now we have all these complicated rules and seasons and what not... I miss the old days when I used to fish rice patties in Korea LOL. We'd catch bullfrogs, carp, and all kinds of weird fish I knew nothing about.

[hookorcrook]

It seems to me that it is not the recreational fisherman, or netting Indians or commercial fishermen who are to blame, it is all of us. We are the ones who put the demand on our environment. We are the ones who demand dams for cheaper energy. We are the ones who want navigable waterways and roadways to move and get commerce. We are the ones who demand the lumber to build our large houses. And maybe we weren't here when all those decisions were made, but we are left with the legacy of it and continue to feed it. If humans didn't alter the natural landscape to the degree that nature can't adjust, then there wouldn't be a probem to discuss.

In my mind, the problem isn't that recreational fishing might or might not be stopped, the problem is that there are not enough fish. Take salmon: Historically, tens of millions of salmon would come back every year. The Indians fished the hell out of them for thousands of years. That didn't stop the salmon. They continued to come. Why? Because it was self-sustaining. The Indians didn't or couldn't take more than what the salmon produced.

Now that's not the case anymore. Salmon and all the fish stocks cannot produce enough to be self-sustaining. And it's because we have altered their environment and continue to overtax their dwindling populations. Their millions of years of evolution cannot adjust to 200 years of greed, neglect, and apathy.

So worrying about losing fishing rights or writing a congressman to me is like putting a band-aid on a broken arm. It might make you or me feel better because we did something, but it's not going to heal the break. Yes, our fishing rights should be protected, and we should fight for them, but we are losing the bigger battle. With the system set up as-is, fish stocks will never get any better, and can only get worse (due in part to continued over-population and building in the region). There are alternatives.

Alternative forms of energy. Updated technology that can be built or applied to replace or lessen damage to the environment. New ways of doing out-moded things that are detrimental to fish habitat. Us actually demanding less from the environment and using less in general. Restoring and fixing mistakes that were made. Lessening pollution. I think these are the solutions to fishing issues, not banning certain groups of people from fishing.

Normally I don't chime in on these types of conversations. But I hear the same thing from so many people (in America in general, not particularly this forum or this thread, though it is here too). People who are interested more in keeping their rights and their status quo, then doing what is right because it's the right thing to do.

When alternatives are discussed, people freak about the money it will cost. Even if it makes sense, is good for the natural world, and fixes a mistake or solves a problem, people are not willing to make the personal sacrifice whether its rolling up the sleeves or pulling out the wallet. When something might need to be closed or altered, even for it's own good and legitimate reason, there's an uproar that "you can't do that to me, us, our group, etc."

Anyway, if you've gotten this far, that's the problem as I see it. And this is certainly no solution, just some thoughts. Somebody earlier said something about being a conservationist and not an environmentalist. I don't see the two as being diametrically opposed to each other. It's hard to conserve something without an environment. I guess I would consider myself to be both.

[jbball50]

It seems to me that it is not the recreational fisherman, or netting Indians or commercial fishermen who are to blame, it is all of us. We are the ones who put the demand on our environment. We are the ones who demand dams for cheaper energy. We are the ones who want navigable waterways and roadways to move and get commerce. We are the ones who demand the lumber to build our large houses. And maybe we weren't here when all those decisions were made, but we are left with the legacy of it and continue to feed it. If humans didn't alter the natural landscape to the degree that nature can't adjust, then there wouldn't be a probem to discuss.

In my mind, the problem isn't that recreational fishing might or might not be stopped, the problem is that there are not enough fish. Take salmon: Historically, tens of millions of salmon would come back every year. The Indians fished the hell out of them for thousands of years. That didn't stop the salmon. They continued to come. Why? Because it was self-sustaining. The Indians didn't or couldn't take more than what the salmon produced.

Now that's not the case anymore. Salmon and all the fish stocks cannot produce enough to be self-sustaining. And it's because we have altered their environment and continue to overtax their dwindling populations. Their millions of years of evolution cannot adjust to 200 years of greed, neglect, and apathy.

So worrying about losing fishing rights or writing a congressman to me is like putting a band-aid on a broken arm. It might make you or me feel better because we did something, but it's not going to heal the break. Yes, our fishing rights should be protected, and we should fight for them, but we are losing the bigger battle. With the system set up as-is, fish stocks will never get any better, and can only get worse (due in part to continued over-population and building in the region). There are alternatives.

Alternative forms of energy. Updated technology that can be built or applied to replace or lessen damage to the environment. New ways of doing out-moded things that are detrimental to fish habitat. Us actually demanding less from the environment and using less in general. Restoring and fixing mistakes that were made. Lessening pollution. I think these are the solutions to fishing issues, not banning certain groups of people from fishing.

Normally I don't chime in on these types of conversations. But I hear the same thing from so many people (in America in general, not particularly this forum or this thread, though it is here too). People who are interested more in keeping their rights and their status quo, then doing what is right because it's the right thing to do.

When alternatives are discussed, people freak about the money it will cost. Even if it makes sense, is good for the natural world, and fixes a mistake or solves a problem, people are not willing to make the personal sacrifice whether its rolling up the sleeves or pulling out the wallet. When something might need to be closed or altered, even for it's own good and legitimate reason, there's an uproar that "you can't do that to me, us, our group, etc."

Anyway, if you've gotten this far, that's the problem as I see it. And this is certainly no solution, just some thoughts. Somebody earlier said something about being a conservationist and not an environmentalist. I don't see the two as being diametrically opposed to each other. It's hard to conserve something without an environment. I guess I would consider myself to be both.

While the environmental issues are one of the main contributors, you definitely cannot rule out that us as fishermen, recreational and commercial don't put a dent in the population. You can't really talk about natives thousands of years fishing salmon and not putting a dent in the population, when there's probably 10,000 times more people fishing now if not more than what there was back then in Washington waters. It would be great to say tear down all the dams, stop logging, or stop using pesticides on your gardens and farms but it most likely won't happen because of money and what not.

[bionic_one]

Seems poaching and mishandling is more widespread than I've seen.

Remember, that which you allow to happen in your presence, is known as your standard.

What do I mean by that? Don't let society make you a complacent bystander. When you see something wrong, do something about it. Doing NOTHING, makes you just as guilty as the person commiting the rule infraction. This is really a broad statement towards everyone, not one particular person, because more often than not, I see people on this forum saying things to the effect that they didn't want to get involved or didn't feel safe telling someone they were wrong. Get a concealed carry permit if you don't feel safe, or call in the authorities.

I see lots of people saying things like "it's our responsibility to be stewards of the environment" - which is basically what a conservationist is, but if you're standing by doing nothing while someone else is breaking the rules you yourself live by, not only are you letting someone destroy a precious resource, your letting a small piece of your own humanity die, and becoming the complacent cow that it seems society wants us all to become.

[The Quadfather]

Don't let society make you a complacent bystander. When you see something wrong, do something about it. Doing NOTHING, makes you just as guilty as the person commiting the rule infraction.
I see lots of people saying things like "it's our responsibility to be stewards of the environment" - which is basically what a conservationist is, but if you're standing by doing nothing while someone else is breaking the rules you yourself live by, not only are you letting someone destroy a precious resource, your letting a small piece of your own humanity die, and becoming the complacent cow that it seems society wants us all to become.

Very well said!

[ckim85]

Seems poaching and mishandling is more widespread than I've seen.

Remember, that which you allow to happen in your presence, is known as your standard.

What do I mean by that? Don't let society make you a complacent bystander. When you see something wrong, do something about it. Doing NOTHING, makes you just as guilty as the person commiting the rule infraction. This is really a broad statement towards everyone, not one particular person, because more often than not, I see people on this forum saying things to the effect that they didn't want to get involved or didn't feel safe telling someone they were wrong. Get a concealed carry permit if you don't feel safe, or call in the authorities.

I see lots of people saying things like "it's our responsibility to be stewards of the environment" - which is basically what a conservationist is, but if you're standing by doing nothing while someone else is breaking the rules you yourself live by, not only are you letting someone destroy a precious resource, your letting a small piece of your own humanity die, and becoming the complacent cow that it seems society wants us all to become.

Yes, I make it a priority to call WDFW whenever possible. I'm not one for confrontation and typically the ones I find poaching are of the...rough...crowd...that I'd rather not roll with. I'm not one for carrying a concealed weapon either so I call the authorities and give them as much detail as possible and hope for the best.

[MikeFishes]

I was listening to the Dave Bose show on the way home last night. He had a lady from the Keep America Fishing group. They are one of the groups who are keeping close tabs on this. She seemed actually quite optimistic. The main concern she had is that the task force will group Recreational Fishing into Commercial. Many feel that Recreational Fishing is a sustainable activity and should be considered separate. I think that so long as Recreational fishing is kept separate, there probably won't be any issue.

[scott080379]

You guys are talking that fouled hook fish is poaching. At least that is how I am reading it. I have fouled hook a few fish, but by no means is it poaching. IF you keep the fish, then yes it is. Sometimes hooked get fouled and nothing you can do about it. I feel a fish bite or at least feels like one and I try to set the hook. the only thing you can do to help a fish that is snagged is cut your line but then you have line a ngear swimming along this with this fish. If you are ina an area that you continue to snag fish and not hook them in the mouth, then you should find a new hole or jsut stop yanking on your pole so damn much.

The banning of our fishing could be taking away at some point but it will take a few years before that will happen. They are more likely to shut down certain areas to fish first, one river or area of the sound at a time. Until we have nothing left.

[bionic_one]

I'm 100% sure that everyone talking about foul hooking was talking about foul hooking and KEEPING the foul hooked fish as being poaching. Everyone gets foul hooked fish, but we're supposed to put them back.

[scott080379]

I am sure that is what they were trying to say but a couple of post read diffrent

[Dustin07]

the worst i saw was fall puyallup salmon fever. A guy wearing blue jeans was up to his waste pulling in fish after fish after fish. I watched him catch a good 12-15 and I know he had more before i watched, and kept more after I left. He would grab em, throw them on his stringer and bring in another. foul hooked or not. He had a couple kids in the mud playing behind him, all I can figure is he was trying to catch 'their' limit too.

[Gringo Pescador]

Poaching hotline: 1-877-933-9847

I have it saved on my cell phone...