Shot Sealions

[beerman1981]

I totally agree with KTK. As he pointed out, sea lions and salmon have coexisted for thousands of years, and depleted salmon runs is a problem faced in the last twenty years or so, which leads me to believe that the Sea Lions are kind of a scape goat for the depleted salmon runs. Sure, Sea Lions contribute for some of the loss of the salmon, but there are many other factors which contribute for as much, if not more, of the depleted runs. The fact that this is a current (last few decades) issue suggests to me that it is not nature throwing off the salmon runs, but rather humans. Commerical fishing, dams, and especially gill netting all contribute for the loss.

People really enjoy eating salmon and it is important for Washington's economy, so we will not be outlawing commercial salmon fishing. Secondly, the rules for the Indians in regards to fishing strategies (which I personally think need to be updated for today's society), were set a hundred years ago or so. So, there is no stopping the gill nets, which claim thousands of salmon. Third, fish latters have been installed in all the dams, but it is still much more difficult for salmon and steelhead to navigate, than if there were no fish latters. Dams are extremely important for the economy. Barges run the river, with millions of tons of freight. GRAND COULEE! If we had no Grand Coulee, I can't imagine what people would be paying for electricity. Also, without dams, a lot of the recreation we enjoy would be gone... Waterskiing, fishing, boating, etc. We need the dams (but it is impossible to say that they do not put a strain on the migrating salmon).

This brings me to the sea lions. Yes, they eat salmon, and decrease their run numbers, but this is one thing that can be changed. We can kill the sea lions, which may make a small impact on our salmon runs, but we cannot be blind. Sea Lions are posing as a scape goat for all of the other issues that are hurting salmon run numbers. As I pointed out, these other factors (indian gill netting, commercial fishing, dams) are all things that will not be changing anytime soon, so finding a short term culprit becomes necassary, I guess..... Hmmm.

Personally, I am not a greenie. If the government shoots some sea lions, so be it. There are plenty of sea lions out there, that they will not become extinct if we eliminate some. I personally think they are kind of gross creatures (but fun to watch sometimes). I just have extreme doubt that this will have the impact that people expect.

As for the person who shot all of the sea lions on his own, I hope they catch him and he recieves a harsh sentence. As some of you have pointed out, it is not the job of one disgruntled redneck salmon fisherman acting as "dog the bounty hunter" to take the law into his own hands and start shooting many random creatures ILLEGALLY. This is the type of action that leads to the "mob effect." We don't need a bunch of marine biology illiterite individuals with high calliber weapons and Miller High Life in their hands taking after this poachers example, shooting as many sea lions as possible, because they think they are justified. If this action is to happen, the government will let it. If not, put down the gun, and step away from the Columbia River. Grab a cheap beer and watch a re run of cops... You are not the law. Let the biologists handle it.

Cheers to cheap beer,

Beerman

[kutthroatkilla]

Let the biologists handle it.

Spot on beerman1981. It's not our job to do what needs or doesn't need to be done. We're not in the position to shoot these animals, and furthermore, there is really no parallel between this incident and the Makah Tribal Whale Hunt so the two are not equatable. Sea lions are cool creatures, but of course there needs to be some trapping going on all the time.
KTK

[A9]

I totally agree with KTK. As he pointed out, sea lions and salmon have coexisted for thousands of years,
...
People really enjoy eating salmon and it is important for Washington's economy, so we will not be outlawing commercial salmon fishing.
...
GRAND COULEE! If we had no Grand Coulee, I can't imagine what people would be paying for electricity. Also, without dams, a lot of the recreation we enjoy would be gone... Waterskiing, fishing, boating, etc. We need the dams (but it is impossible to say that they do not put a strain on the migrating salmon).
...
Sea Lions are posing as a scape goat for all of the other issues that are hurting salmon run numbers. As I pointed out, these other factors (indian gill netting, commercial fishing, dams) are all things that will not be changing anytime soon, so finding a short term culprit becomes necassary, I guess..... Hmmm.

Joe, No hard feelings, I just disagree with some of your points or perhaps what you are mentioning is brief and is coming across as something different then you intend... We are all for the same goal, and that being larger stocks of salmon....

Salmon/sealions do not coexist when there is a buffet of salmon stacking up before a dam. That is the dilemma we are facing now on rivers. Correct though, salmon and sea lions will coexist under natural conditions. But damns are basically a big plug in the river. Fish stack up before going up the ladder, which is where Sea lions place themselves to sit and eat. Dams haven't been here for very long. Dams are a bigger problem then sea lions, but the impact the sea lions have grows rapidly when dams are in place.

I could see commercial salmon fishing, perhaps even sport-fishing, outlawed in future years. Our two southern neighbors (Cali and OR) already banned commercial fishing this year.

I understand dams benefit us A LOT, most importantly for irrigation and energy reasons (it's not like the state has a shortage of lakes or water to boat or fish) but to what extent can we build dams? Everything we do has external effects, all of which we can't continue to shove off to the side and downplay. Dams do provide an INCREDIBLE amount of energy, but it really damages the river and ruins a lot of salmon habitat.

Sea lions aren't posing as a scape goat. I disagree with you here. I haven't met one person who says they are the biggest reason for declining salmon stocks. Indian netting, commercial fishing, construction of dams and the degradation of salmon habitat are ALWAYS mentioned as a bigger factor then sea lions to me when I talk with other fishermen. Sea lions are just the easiest thing to fix at this point. Removing dams? That ain't happening. Indian netting? Well we can't really take away the Boldt decision just like that. Commercial fishing? Gonna be hard to get rid of that one...Fixing salmon habitat? That's gonna take years...But eliminating a significant population of sea lions? Much cheaper and a much quicker fix then any other method...

On the note of trapping and releasing: We tried that. But they managed to come back to the same spot months later, that being the Columbia River...

-Kafelafish

[Marc Martyn]

I hope the idiot who shot these animals opens his mouth to a buddy and gets himself caught! Or maybe investigators can trace the bullets back to his firearm. I am amazed how worthless people are! It is my guess the jerk used a boat to pull up and shoot the defenseless animals. What a rodent! I would love to see him receive the same. ANGRY!!!!!

This incident reminds me of the "Great Buffalo Hunts" of the 19th century. Rich easterners and politicians would venture out to the west to hunt the massive buffalo on the Great Plains. When they arrived at their hunting grounds, they would shoot them one after another, inside a pen! Taking only the heads back east, they would mount them on the wall and spout off about the great Bison Hunt they were on.

It is sad that if an animal interferes with man in any way, humans have a quick answer to the inconvenience .......kill it.

[beerman1981]

I totally agree with KTK. As he pointed out, sea lions and salmon have coexisted for thousands of years,
...
People really enjoy eating salmon and it is important for Washington's economy, so we will not be outlawing commercial salmon fishing.
...
GRAND COULEE! If we had no Grand Coulee, I can't imagine what people would be paying for electricity. Also, without dams, a lot of the recreation we enjoy would be gone... Waterskiing, fishing, boating, etc. We need the dams (but it is impossible to say that they do not put a strain on the migrating salmon).
...
Sea Lions are posing as a scape goat for all of the other issues that are hurting salmon run numbers. As I pointed out, these other factors (indian gill netting, commercial fishing, dams) are all things that will not be changing anytime soon, so finding a short term culprit becomes necassary, I guess..... Hmmm.

Joe, No hard feelings, I just disagree with some of your points or perhaps what you are mentioning is brief and is coming across as something different then you intend... We are all for the same goal, and that being larger stocks of salmon....

Salmon/sealions do not coexist when there is a buffet of salmon stacking up before a dam. That is the dilemma we are facing now on rivers. Correct though, salmon and sea lions will coexist under natural conditions. But damns are basically a big plug in the river. Fish stack up before going up the ladder, which is where Sea lions place themselves to sit and eat. Dams haven't been here for very long. Dams are a bigger problem then sea lions, but the impact the sea lions have grows rapidly when dams are in place.

I could see commercial salmon fishing, perhaps even sport-fishing, outlawed in future years. Our two southern neighbors (Cali and OR) already banned commercial fishing this year.

I understand dams benefit us A LOT, most importantly for irrigation and energy reasons (it's not like the state has a shortage of lakes or water to boat or fish) but to what extent can we build dams? Everything we do has external effects, all of which we can't continue to shove off to the side and downplay. Dams do provide an INCREDIBLE amount of energy, but it really damages the river and ruins a lot of salmon habitat.

Sea lions aren't posing as a scape goat. I disagree with you here. I haven't met one person who says they are the biggest reason for declining salmon stocks. Indian netting, commercial fishing, construction of dams and the degradation of salmon habitat are ALWAYS mentioned as a bigger factor then sea lions to me when I talk with other fishermen. Sea lions are just the easiest thing to fix at this point. Removing dams? That ain't happening. Indian netting? Well we can't really take away the Boldt decision just like that. Commercial fishing? Gonna be hard to get rid of that one...Fixing salmon habitat? That's gonna take years...But eliminating a significant population of sea lions? Much cheaper and a much quicker fix then any other method...

On the note of trapping and releasing: We tried that. But they managed to come back to the same spot months later, that being the Columbia River...

-Kafelafish

I was mainly pointing out that there are a lot of major issues that impact the salmon, moreso than sea lions, which we have no control over, but the one thing that we do have control of IS the Sea Lions. I do agree that the sea lions are part of the impact on salmon runs, but was stating that there is so much more in the equation. In the latter part of my post, I was saying that I have no problem with the elimination of some of the sea lions, provided it is done legally! My main point was that, even if we legally eliminate a fair amount of sea lions, the issue of depleted salmon runs will always continue. But, like you said, "Sea Lions are just the easiest thing to fix at this point," is exactly what I was saying. It's a short term solution to the problem, and will not completely fix it. And, as I said, as long as the slaughtering is not done by someone thinking he is a bounty hunter, I have no probelm with it. Perhaps it will help some, but the salmon face such other high risks in their attempt to spawn. But, once we take care of the sea lions, what comes next?? It's an imperfect solution to an imperfect problem. I'm not one for arguing over opinions, and I stated mine, and I see yours as well. No hard feelings at all. Hope all is well @ college.


Beerman

[A9]

I was mainly pointing out that there are a lot of major issues that impact the salmon, moreso than sea lions, which we have no control over, but the one thing that we do have control of IS the Sea Lions. I do agree that the sea lions are part of the impact on salmon runs, but was stating that there is so much more in the equation. In the latter part of my post, I was saying that I have no problem with the elimination of some of the sea lions, provided it is done legally! My main point was that, even if we legally eliminate a fair amount of sea lions, the issue of depleted salmon runs will always continue. But, like you said, "Sea Lions are just the easiest thing to fix at this point," is exactly what I was saying. It's a short term solution to the problem, but will not completely fix it. Perhaps it will help some, but the salmon face such other high risks in their attempt to spawn. But, once we take care of the sea lions, what comes next?? I'm not one for arguing over opinions, and I stated mine, and I see yours as well. No hard feelings at all. Hope all is well @ college.


Beerman

I agree all the way.... I figured this is what you had meant, but didn't get fully explained in your previous post.
Take care

[fishaholictaz]

Her is some more info I found:
Only one of the six was among the California sea lions that frequent the dam, said Bob Lohn, regional administrator of the National Marine Fisheries Service. Two were Steller sea lions, which prefer sturgeon over salmon.The trapping has been suspended.

Veterinarians examining the sea lions Monday were unable to find bullets, said Brian Gorman, a National Marine Fisheries Service spokesman.

Veterinarians examining the sea lions Monday were unable to find bullets, said Brian Gorman, a National Marine Fisheries Service spokesman.

He said investigators discounted their earlier theory that the gunshots were fired from the Washington side of the river, about 500 yards away, in part because the cage doors were closed.

Normally, the doors are left open so the sea lions get used to the cages until trappers are ready to remove them, Gorman said.

The traps were next to an island, and investigators theorized Monday that whoever shot the sea lions arrived by boat.

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokeswoman Diana Fredlund said the currents are complex and unpredictable as water issues from two powerhouses and the spillway.

"Suffice it to say that in order to undertake (the shootings) this person would have to be somewhat familiar with the trapping methods used there and the operation of the traps," Lohn said.


Semi auto probably a sks full metal jacket in order to punch all the way through those beasts:-"

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

Let the biologists handle it.

Spot on beerman1981. It's not our job to do what needs or doesn't need to be done. We're not in the position to shoot these animals, and furthermore, there is really no parallel between this incident and the Makah Tribal Whale Hunt so the two are not equatable. Sea lions are cool creatures, but of course there needs to be some trapping going on all the time.
KTK

The parallel isn't hard to see. The Makahs had a treaty with the US that allowed them to whale. They had a quota granted in 1999 (or around there). Their recent attempt was hung up in the courts by PETA/HSUS/and the rest of the fringe huggers.

Sea lion removal permits were granted by the Feds last month. KILLING THEM WAS DEEMED LEGAL!!! HSUS decided there had to be a "better way" and filed in federal court to delay things. Someone was tired of the delay and decided to take things into his/her own hands.

Personally I think the Makahs would have been better served to be found guilty and then appeal the verdict in federal court on the grounds their treaty rights allowed whaling. I bet that the ruling would have granted them the right to whale anytime they wanted.

People poach salmon all the time. I don't see you people up in arms about that as mucha as you are about 6 shot sea lions. Shoot, shooting sea lions probably happens all the time by commercial netters and we don't hear much about that.

The Feds gave permits for 80-85 sea lions. How come you guys aren't complaining about HSUS delaying that?

I decided one day at Neah Bay when I saw a huge sea lion looking like he wanted to pull my lab off the docks that I didn't care for them much.

[kevinb]

I had originally thought the sealions were shot in the river. After watching it on a couple news outlets,I was even more shocked to find that they were in cages and being shipped out.IMHO,that is sad...shooting something in a cage..pathetic.
Regardless of how we feel about sealions,this is an illegal act and certainly won't help the fishery in the public eye. I personally think this guy will get caught(hope)He'll boast to somebody...what an idiot.:albino:


Great article 'Taz

[Drewp]

The parallel isn't hard to see. The Makahs had a treaty with the US that allowed them to whale. They had a quota granted in 1999 (or around there). Their recent attempt was hung up in the courts by PETA/HSUS/and the rest of the fringe huggers.

Sea lion removal permits were granted by the Feds last month. KILLING THEM WAS DEEMED LEGAL!!! HSUS decided there had to be a "better way" and filed in federal court to delay things. Someone was tired of the delay and decided to take things into his/her own hands.

Personally I think the Makahs would have been better served to be found guilty and then appeal the verdict in federal court on the grounds their treaty rights allowed whaling. I bet that the ruling would have granted them the right to whale anytime they wanted.

People poach salmon all the time. I don't see you people up in arms about that as mucha as you are about 6 shot sea lions. Shoot, shooting sea lions probably happens all the time by commercial netters and we don't hear much about that.

The Feds gave permits for 80-85 sea lions. How come you guys aren't complaining about HSUS delaying that?

I decided one day at Neah Bay when I saw a huge sea lion looking like he wanted to pull my lab off the docks that I didn't care for them much.

So because some idiot was tired of waiting for the removal that was set to happen, the removal could potentially not happen at all? I just don't see the logic. I want them gone as bad as anyone I'm sure, so I just can't understand why someone would do this now that the removal process had started. Fed up with the delays? WTF? This whole thing is dumb - and you can't fix stupid.

Oh, I'm not a fan of any kind of poaching - whether thats a protected marine mammal or a salmon.

[A9]

kevinb, and other: Here's an article that explains what they think happened...
http://www.komotv.com/news/18686299.html

[kevinb]

Thanks for the link Sam,
So it must be someone VERY familiar with the area. I would guess that the rifle used with at least 6 shots would have to be pretty loud. I'm surprise theirs no witness's that saw the (boat?) or shooter(s)

[kavykid2k6]

what went on down at those traps is messed up big time. but i think some of you need to re-read the story on what is happening to these things. on another site i read that only two species will be brought into captivity if the keep coming back, there is five diffrent types of sealions and seals that are behind that damn. the other three are gettin "humainly ethinized" if the show back up there.

Have you ever been to a buffet? you go up and get this huge plate of food, only eat a little bit, then just throw it away? Thats what these's animals are doin below the dam, just killing fish for fun, thats why they are moving them out of there. Not because there are just there eating but because they are wasting all those fish.

just my two cents on this and i know i am going to get flamed

[fishaholictaz]

Have you ever been to a buffet? you go up and get this huge plate of food, only eat a little bit, then just throw it away? Thats what these's animals are doin below the dam, just killing fish for fun, thats why they are moving them out of there. Not because there are just there eating but because they are wasting all those fish.

I have seen and heard many times the lions just eat the belly out of the fish and that is only if they are hens! They will bite into them and if there are no eggs they leave it alone#-o So no flaming from me I agree that they waste 75% of the fish they kill!!

[ruthven78]

What dog does HSUS have in this fight? They are nothing more than a PETA clone and favoring sea lions over salmon. Shoot (no pun intended), if they (PETA and HSUS) had their way we wouldn't even get to fish.

Wake up folks and smell the fish. Pay attention who you want to partner with.

If PETA had their way there would be laws against harming animals in any way, there would be no fences so animals can roam free, there would be no sport allowed to hurt animals, instead we would have veggie games like mushroom hunting derbies...oh wait, no couldnt do that, that would be taking away a potential food source from animals....so we would have to farm...oh wait, then we would be encroaching on wildlife habitats.....I guess these misguided fools think we should just all disappear and return the earth to the animals.......anytime I hear someone say they are a PETA member or vegan (basically the same thing) I want to just punch em in the face and then as they crying about their bloody nose I would point out to them everything they wear and everything they use on a daily basis that involves some sort of practice that harms, potentially harms, and/or infringes upon animals and their rights....i despise all zealot groups like PETA and the like.....just because they are so hardnosed about their cause they are blind to anything else.

What I say about the sealions....oh well, yup it can potentially give human society more clout to their case, and yeah, it was a dumb thing to do.....but here is what I think should be done in the future....trap em, tag em, relocate em, and if any of the tagged ones make their way back, trap em, shoot em, sell their carcass to a rendering plant, use the procedes to improve the salmon runs. Or a lottery drawing for a sealion permit that allows for shooting tagged sealions found within the boneville dam area, use procedes to improve salmon runs.

[ruthven78]

[
People poach salmon all the time. I don't see you people up in arms about that as mucha as you are about 6 shot sea lions.

When it makes big headlines and someone posts about it here you will see the uproar...and mostly the uproar here is caused by a taking of sides, I dont think many of us would take the side of the poacher....albeit there may be those who take the side of less regulation.....

[racfish]

When in Rome do as the Romans do.We live in America.In America we follow rules and laws in our everyday lives.We might not like all the rules all the time but we follow them anyways.Its what makes our country as great as it is.Taking the law into your own hands is not the way.If anything it hurts the struggle to change these laws.

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

So...which group shot the sea lions...indians, commercials or sportfishermen??

Sure is something when I have to quote myself.

As one who likes solving puzzles and "who done it's" there was one group originally missed from the suspects, members of the animal rights orginazations.

It would seem like a perfect red herring to have a PETA member pop those sea lions and place the blame on another group AND get the trapping suspended in addition.


Break out the straightjacket. I'm beginning to get paranoid. 2XL is my size.

[Drewp]

There's nothing that can be done about it now. Whatever group shot them is completely arbitrary now. Even if it was PETA that did it, which I highly doubt it was, what's done is done. If they find out who did it and it turns out to be PETA, then I don't think it will help their cause.

I find it very amusing how everything has to be a big conspiracy.

[mikecrawford16]

personally I dont like the sea lions just because there eating all the very few salmon that we have. I dont know about all of you but I love salmon and if some animal is eating the fish and decreasing the remanding of the population I'm glad that six of them are dead, but it is a tradagey because sea lions are on the endangered species list.