The great C and R debate

[natetreat]

Fact is , if myself and others kept one big bass every time we went out fishing. There would not be very many big bass left for the rest of you. I doubt there is a single fish in the state over 17" that hasn't been caught and released at least once. If we don't release those fish you wouldn't even see a big fish much less catch it. Bass fishing in Washington is already fairly poor. WDFW needs to remove the slot and change it to no fish over 14" can be retained at all unless in a registered competition.

That's just not going to happen. We're not a bass state, and you admit to that. You've got to be reasonable, and pick the lakes that you want trophy fisheries on. That's my point, and it's a good one.

[natetreat]

And look at this! I just recruited another person to take part in the debate. ADT has only 4 posts in the forum, and my devil's advocacy has inspired him/her to become more active in doing something to get bigger fish. Even if it's just posting in a forum. This forum has more of an impact that you'd think on the fisheries in Washington.

[fishingmachine]

My main purpose in this thread was to educate people on why c and r may be the better option for those that may not know the facts behind larger bass and their age, spawning habits and all that. I wanted to just be able to deliver the info in a way that I don't have people cussing me out thinking im the biggest jerk in the world but like you said you cant please everyone and I knew talking bout this would ruffle some feathers but if it educates more people and keeps more big bass in our lakes than I think it is a success. I definitely appreciate your points nate and you have raised some good ones and like you said its good to hear both sides whether that is the side you truly support or not.

Nate the costs that wdfw has raised for bass clubs comes to funding their tournament permits. They have made it so basically it is almost impossible for clubs to be able to fund the tournaments they typically host every year. It is sad because unfortunately combining bass clubs is very difficult to do because of the restrictions on numbers of tournaments on a lake per month to the size of the lake needed to hold this many boats to as simple as bass fisherman are spread out all over the state and there is really not one central location where we could all hold meetings let alone fish tournaments in a tough economic time when gas prices are through the roof the added tournament fees are potentially going to force clubs that have been around for awhile to shut down.

I think there is some hope to the 14" rule and that will be the first idea I try to get all the bass fishermen's support behind but if that fails than your trophy option is the next best thing

[natetreat]

Fact is , if myself and others kept one big bass every time we went out fishing. There would not be very many big bass left for the rest of you. I doubt there is a single fish in the state over 17" that hasn't been caught and released at least once. If we don't release those fish you wouldn't even see a big fish much less catch it. Bass fishing in Washington is already fairly poor. WDFW needs to remove the slot and change it to no fish over 14" can be retained at all unless in a registered competition.

How about we get a catch record card for big bass? Only 5 a year or something like that. One of the reasons why we still have a one wild fish limit is so that we can keep the next world record steelhead that comes out of our healthier fisheries. It's the same with bass. I mean, what to they say, a record bass is worth like 50,000 or something like that?

[ADT]

A catch record card for big bass . That's a viable option that could work. It would at least be better then the current regulations.

[fishingmachine]

I disagree with that nate. those 5 big bass if out of the same lake could potentially ruin a fishery if its a small enough body of water. Its going to be tough to change anything but I don't think the catch record card idea is on par with ur other idea at all. Because you still run the risk of those fish being taken out and the fishery suffering especially if say those 5 fish are 5 pregnant females.

[Amx]

Fact is , if myself and others kept one big bass every time we went out fishing. There would not be very many big bass left for the rest of you. I doubt there is a single fish in the state over 17" that hasn't been caught and released at least once. If we don't release those fish you wouldn't even see a big fish much less catch it. Bass fishing in Washington is already fairly poor. WDFW needs to remove the slot and change it to no fish over 14" can be retained at all unless in a registered competition.

How about we get a catch record card for big bass? Only 5 a year or something like that. One of the reasons why we still have a one wild fish limit is so that we can keep the next world record steelhead that comes out of our healthier fisheries. It's the same with bass. I mean, what to they say, a record bass is worth like 50,000 or something like that?

A catch record card for Bass won't work as we don't know what is going to eat your lure. And keeping 5 isn't going to work because we don't even keep 1, let alone 5.

And a catch record card won't work for the meat fishermen as THEY don't follow the regs anyway.

[natetreat]

My main purpose in this thread was to educate people on why c and r may be the better option for those that may not know the facts behind larger bass and their age, spawning habits and all that. I wanted to just be able to deliver the info in a way that I don't have people cussing me out thinking im the biggest jerk in the world but like you said you cant please everyone and I knew talking bout this would ruffle some feathers but if it educates more people and keeps more big bass in our lakes than I think it is a success. I definitely appreciate your points nate and you have raised some good ones and like you said its good to hear both sides whether that is the side you truly support or not.

Nate the costs that wdfw has raised for bass clubs comes to funding their tournament permits. They have made it so basically it is almost impossible for clubs to be able to fund the tournaments they typically host every year. It is sad because unfortunately combining bass clubs is very difficult to do because of the restrictions on numbers of tournaments on a lake per month to the size of the lake needed to hold this many boats to as simple as bass fisherman are spread out all over the state and there is really not one central location where we could all hold meetings let alone fish tournaments in a tough economic time when gas prices are through the roof the added tournament fees are potentially going to force clubs that have been around for awhile to shut down.

I think there is some hope to the 14" rule and that will be the first idea I try to get all the bass fishermen's support behind but if that fails than your trophy option is the next best thing

If your main point was to lecture folks on why they should catch and release, you shouldn't have called the thread "the great C&R debate.

And anyways, why should someone trust you over the next guy? A debate with both sides is more instructive and able to help people formulate their own opinions than being lectured by someone they don't know if they can trust, without sources anonymously. I'm actually helping you to further your agenda.

I'm behind you 100% on wanting big bass in the lakes. I also don't really know that much about the tournament fees, and I'd like to see some articles that give me more information on that so I can formulate an informed opinion on the subject. I've never been a part of a tournament, don't have the boat for it. I've done the derby on the humptulips though, that was fun, so I'd like to see a good set of derbies for bass as well. But it is true that over populating certain lakes with tourney's could be a bad idea, so I get where WDFW is coming from. They gotta make money somehow, they're one of the first agencies to get funding ripped away when the state has a crisis.

[fishingmachine]

Nate you slightly missed my point when I said overcrowding lakes it was because you were talking about the bass clubs coming together. well if they were to do that there is no happy medium between all the people having to drive because there is really no centralized location you could have the tournaments. I live in Sammamish and the nearest bass club to me is in Auburn, Puyallup, or Lynnwood. It is too hard to centralize it because of just the simple cost of travel for everyone.

[natetreat]

I disagree with that nate. those 5 big bass if out of the same lake could potentially ruin a fishery if its a small enough body of water. Its going to be tough to change anything but I don't think the catch record card idea is on par with ur other idea at all. Because you still run the risk of those fish being taken out and the fishery suffering especially if say those 5 fish are 5 pregnant females.

Those smaller fisheries just aren't good bass lakes to begin with. I'm sorry, but that's the case. You've got to realize that bass are not a priority in Washington, they're not native, they eat salmon and steelhead, they're invasive. We don't have the environment for bass here. That being said, there are a bunch of lakes that do have a more viable population that you should be focusing on. The fact that the lake can only support 5 big bass means that it's just not a good bass lake, and really isn't going to get the attention that you want.

[natetreat]

Nate you slightly missed my point when I said overcrowding lakes it was because you were talking about the bass clubs coming together. well if they were to do that there is no happy medium between all the people having to drive because there is really no centralized location you could have the tournaments. I live in Sammamish and the nearest bass club to me is in Auburn, Puyallup, or Lynnwood. It is too hard to centralize it because of just the simple cost of travel for everyone.

Well, that's something that can be overcome. I'm a member of several clubs, and I set aside my time to go do it. I participate in the American Killifish Association, we have local chapters, and some bigger meetings in British Columbia, and the West Coast convention in Portland and the National Convention once a year. We have auctions at our meeting to raise money, where we sell fish that we breed, aquarium supplies and other stuff. If we can do it, being such a niche hobby, bass guys certainly can. The musky guys do it! I understand that it's tough, I've advocated for lost causes plenty throughout my years. I'm totally on board with your frustrations.

[sickbayer]

Nate it hit it on the head...they're not native and they eat our native fish. I believe in encouraging them to be kept and eaten, im not talking about the big ones, but if there were less fish there be more bait to go round and produce bigger fish. We have all caught skinny trout because of lack of food in lakes. I wonder how much of the king fry and sea run and kokes get eaten by an invasive bass on lake Sammamish just to name one body of water?

[fishingmachine]

Sickbayer they actually did a study on the smallmouth in the Columbia river and found out that the bass's diet is made up of 1% or less salmon smolt. When it comes to lake wa and Sammamish a lot of the basses main food still rests on stickleback, sculpin, crawdads, yellow perch, sunfish, crappie. Sure they eat the occasional kokanee or salmon fry but not to the extent that a pikeminnow whose main diet is salmon fry does and surely not enough to put a dent in the population. In the mean time many of the big bass in lake Washington actually pray on the pikeminnow that are the real culprits of doing any damage on the salmon if that says anything. I mean sure bass eat the hatchery trout that are put into lakes but those same fish are put in every single year and to me aren't considered native fish because they are raised in a concrete farm.

To quote a study done by ODFW on that exact subject, " A recent publication by Thomas A. Friesen, after a prolonged study by the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife entitled: "A Review of Smallmouth Bass Predation on Juvenile Salmonids", researched bass predation of juvenile salmon in the Columbia river's Hanford Reach among others. Conclusions drawn from the research incuded: "No researchers conclude SMB are a “major” source of salmonid mortality" "The bass …will prove himself, if given the opportunity, the best friend of our salmon and trout.” This is due to them eating the pikeminnow fry the main predator for salmon fry.

[natetreat]

Sickbayer they actually did a study on the smallmouth in the Columbia river and found out that the bass's diet is made up of 1% or less salmon smolt. When it comes to lake wa and Sammamish a lot of the basses main food still rests on stickleback, sculpin, crawdads, yellow perch, sunfish, crappie. Sure they eat the occasional kokanee or salmon fry but not to the extent that a pikeminnow whose main diet is salmon fry does and surely not enough to put a dent in the population. In the mean time many of the big bass in lake Washington actually pray on the pikeminnow that are the real culprits of doing any damage on the salmon if that says anything. I mean sure bass eat the hatchery trout that are put into lakes but those same fish are put in every single year and to me aren't considered native fish because they are raised in a concrete farm.

Yea, I've read those studies too. That being said, CATCH AND KILL PIKEMINNOWS! And carps! Washington and Sammamish really should be managed for kings and sockeye, not bass. I do love bass fishing Washington though, so I'm a little torn on that one. Most of the smaller bass I keep are stuffed with sticklebacks and perch. Pikeminows too. Dolly Varden are more guilty of eating the smolts, probably even the big cutthroat that are in Washington.

[fishingmachine]

Nate its good to hear you on somewhat my side when it comes to trying to blame bass for salmon predatation. Bass are more shallow water out to maybe 60' deep on lake Washington and Sammamish while the salmon tend to frequent more off shore in the deeper water. there paths don't cross to often and like nate said I kill on avg 20-30 pike minnow a year on lake wa. I too love salmon fishing and steelheading but I don't think the bass are to blame for the salmon in either lake wa or Sammamish. there are far greater reasons such as sea lions and netting that play a much bigger role.

[jd39]

"And a catch record card won't work for the meat fishermen as THEY don't follow the regs anyway." - Amx, this is a gross over-generalization. I catch and keep and always follow the regs even when i think they're stupid and unnecessary, the regs are the regs (ok, I've probably broken a few specialized/technical regs out of ignorance, never intentionally, but have never kept an illegal fish which is the point in this context). If I were to catch a bass accidentally, I've never targeted them here, I would only keep it if it were legal to do so. Most other catch and keep anglers I've come across are the same way in my experience. I haven't been checked this entire season by wdfw but still stop when the limits reached and will continue to do so because it's the right thing to do. I'm not offended by your statement just thought it needed to be challenged and corrected. Tight lines.
Generally I'm with Nate and sickbayer on this topic. Growing up my grandfather and I kept bass all the time (legal fish) they are tasty fried up (I think perch are better though). They are not native to WA state and so I don't generally regard them the same way as salmon/steelhead/trout/kokanee. I respect fishingmachine's and others' viewpoints though and think it's a great idea to select certain lakes/areas to manage specifically for bass, I wish they do the same with pike and so pikers can target their preferred species as well. When it comes to their effect on salmon/steelhead I think there are much bigger issues facing them than bass and that's a whole other topic.
Fishingmachine - good thread!
natetreat - good debating!
Take care all.

[Amx]

this is a gross over-generalization.

Yes, but it's still true enough to consider it. The meat fishermen in this thought are primarily those who fill a 5 gal bucket of every Bass they catch, and the game dept person for that area, Potholes, knew about it, and didn't care. And there are those that fish Sawyer every year also, that are from the great country of russia.

And then there are those from that asian country who were disimating the Largemouth population on Banks during the spawn so now at the tournies you can't weigh in a Largemouth during the months of May and June.

[fishingmachine]

I agree with amx on the aspect that I have seen on multiple occasions a guy with a black hefty bag that has yanked two or 3 5#ers out of a lake while they are nesting to kill them as well as a bunch of other in the slot limit. It happens more then you would think and I agree that because of budget cuts that I don't think the regs would be inforced well enough to regulate a catch card. Lets be honest I know people that don't report a damn thing on their catch card and never get checked. The catch card is only as good as the person holding it.

[jd39]

this is a gross over-generalization.

Yes, but it's still true enough to consider it. The meat fishermen in this thought are primarily those who fill a 5 gal bucket of every Bass they catch, and the game dept person for that area, Potholes, knew about it, and didn't care. And there are those that fish Sawyer every year also, that are from the great country of russia.

And then there are those from that asian country who were disimating the Largemouth population on Banks during the spawn so now at the tournies you can't weigh in a Largemouth during the months of May and June.

Ah, well poachers are poachers and native species or not they should go to jail and all their equipment and vehicles seized by the state for auctioning to help offset the damage they've done (if that's possible). And if the poacher is not a US citizen immediate deportation (I don't even want to pay to jail them, just get them out of here). I have no patience for that behavior regardless of the species involved.

[natetreat]

this is a gross over-generalization.

Yes, but it's still true enough to consider it. The meat fishermen in this thought are primarily those who fill a 5 gal bucket of every Bass they catch, and the game dept person for that area, Potholes, knew about it, and didn't care. And there are those that fish Sawyer every year also, that are from the great country of russia.

And then there are those from that asian country who were disimating the Largemouth population on Banks during the spawn so now at the tournies you can't weigh in a Largemouth during the months of May and June.

Yep, no matter the fishery, we have to deal with the poachers. It's infuriating when you see a group of guys hauling out kings and silvers from the Wallace, black bagging them and jetting before the sheriff can get there.

But the majority of anglers are law abiding, so I still contend that it would make a positive difference in the fishery, although it would be a tough sell to WDFW simply because of the attitude they have about nonnative bass.